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| Base Saiyajins and Namek/Mecha Frieza.; Yes, this again... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 11 2016, 05:16 AM (1,578 Views) | |
| Saberoph | Feb 11 2016, 05:16 AM Post #1 |
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We all know this song and dance, most of us have gone round for round about this and I'm sure probably most people are tired of it, but I'm sure there's others who aren't...so what the heck and let's do this. Yes, I know about this Thread and the Thread that's pinned referencing it, but please let this happen unless it gets out of hand. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8523382/1/ This is about Cell Games and Boo arc Base Saiyajins compared to Namek and Mecha Frieza, not Rof Frieza and I'll get into why in a moment. I'm not using Rof Frieza because he trained and it was stated that even 4th Form suppressed Frieza was much more powerful than he was on Namek, so it's really not even necessary bringing up...especially since it's very clear what it means. As for my side of things, I'm not using Goten and Trunks VS No. 18, because it's not really conclusive with Goten being dead weight, Trunks trying to balance himself on Goten's shoulders, while trying to see straight, while also trying to hit No. 18 without also tearing out of the costume. I'm also not using the whole Babidi noticing all the Saiyajins, The Namek and both Kaioshins...that's also not a conclusive enough to use as evidence because they were all suppressed and we don't know for sure if The Namek is above or below any of the Base Saiyajins or not. I'll be Focusing on what happened on Babidi's ship(I know that's not a whole lot, but it kind of is and it's the strongest pieces of evidence and far more conclusive than the former's). We know Kaioshin is concerned with Base Vegeta fighting Pocus, while he kills Pocus with complete ease with Kaioshin in complete shock, is this strong enough to prove anything? Of course not, but I do think it's worth noting and I think you can come back to this after a later statement. Then you have Base Kakarrot taking Yakon, while he is able to scratch Kakarrot's Gi, while still in Base he's still able to dodge everything else and isn't even serious while he knocks Yakon around...almost like he's just toying around. Well, before this Kaioshin suggests they all team up and they might be able to manage something, well Kaioshin would have to be taking his own power into account while making this statement, and I think this is literally the strongest piece of evidence in favor of this notion, along with Kaioshin's comment on being able to defeat Frieza like it was nothing. The only reason Kakarrot went SSJ is because he wanted to show Yakon he had a source of light if he ever needed it. Then you have Kaioshin still grouping Kakarrot, Vegeta and Gohan together after seeing what Kakarrot did, but also seeing Base Kakarrot toy around with someone who Kaioshin suggests himself along with the Saiyajins should team up against, where he would have to include his own power when suggesting this, while also saying they "might" be able to manage something. The fact that he doesn't seem very confident in saying this suggests that he's not 100% sure. However, the thing is...no matter where you have the Base Saiyajins, they should all be grouped together, but they obviously should be in different tiers, considering what we know about Budokai Gohan compared to Pre Majin Vegeta and Kakarrot, but Goten obviously isn't equal to Gohan, but he's at least slightly weaker then him, but he can't be by much considering the scans we got of them sparring and then you have Goten's statement that Trunks is a little stronger then himself, so we do know Gohan, Trunks and Goten are closer together than Kakarrot, Vegeta and Gohan. However, they should still be grouped together in different tiers. I know there are arguments against this, and I'm more than fine with them, but if you're going to argue this...please bring real proof, not excuses or copout explanations just to get around the issue. That's been happening a lot lately, and Threads that should be a pretty much open and shut case end up going 3, 4, 6 or 10 pages because someone or a few people wants to completely ignore what's stated or presented and try to pass off their opinions as fact, with absolutely nothing backing it up. So, my questions are the following... Do you have Base Saiyajins>Namek/Mecha Frieza? If so by how much? If you don't, how come? If you take all the statements and implications about the Base Saiyajins at face value, what tiers do you have the Base Saiyajins in? I will post my answers in a bit, but I do want to see everyone else's first, along with their arguments. Just please keep it civil and please don't troll for the sake of trolling or flame baiting. |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| Zoom | Feb 11 2016, 11:05 AM Post #2 |
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Yes. I will a longer answer after. |
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| + Clearin | Feb 11 2016, 03:58 PM Post #3 |
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Base Saiyans > Piccoro > Freezy |
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| ekrolo2 | Feb 11 2016, 04:20 PM Post #4 |
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Unless the base Saiyan's left Piccolo in the dust in the Cell Games (which we know they don't or else Piccolo would've been murdered completely like the humans were by the Cell Jrs. He doesn't perform as well as Vegeta or Trunks but he's still on his feet while the rest are down for the count) I don't have them above Piccolo or Freeza. Why you ask? Vegeta is still using Gohan, at his Cell Games peak as a benchmark for Goku's power upon his transformation into an SSJ2. This tells me that neither Goku nor Vegeta are massively or even twice as strong as Gohan was before. That's how much he left them in the dust, they had to spend 7 years training like lunatics just to somewhat surpass him. Vegeta, at the time of the Cell Games is somewhat able to hold his ground but it's pretty obvious that a prolonged fight would've had him lose. There's simply no way that Vegeta, and by extension Goku, can become stronger than Piccolo in base yet barely stronger than Gohan was (if that) at his peak unless you retroactively nerf Piccolo to be already inferior to Base Saiyan's in the Cell Games, which I don't buy. With Freeza, I have a lot less info to work with, practically nothing but Beerus' comments. Yes, I know Beerus acts like a doofus, as does Whis, but both the movie and the show clearly portray them as having good insight into how an opponent's power works. He goes from telling Goku "How should I know?!" about SSJG then has a whole speech about how the hell it works, twice. Plus Goku & Karin could sense Cell's true power while he was suppressed & relaxed so I don't see why Beerus couldn't either. Edited by ekrolo2, Feb 11 2016, 04:20 PM.
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| Saberoph | Feb 11 2016, 04:36 PM Post #5 |
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I'll be honest, I do have The Namek>Base Saiyajins. However, I didn't used t feel that way, but now it's different but it isn't by a huge amount. The only Non Fused Base Saiyajin I have above The Namek is Post Zeta Sword Base Gohan. As for how much I have Base Saiyajins above Frieza, well I go by these... Cell Games. Minimum Base Saiyajins: 300,000,000. Maximum Base Saiyajins: 500,000,000. Boo arc. Minimum Base Saiyajins: 440,000,000. Maximum Base Saiyajins: 550,000,000. After posting this, it's reminded me that I really need to redo my Cell and Boo arc power levels, since I don't see things the say way again, and because I don't have the gaps as large as I once believed. @ekrolo2: So, you're basically going to just completely ignore what happened on Babidi's ship? Because if Kaioshin is suggesting they ALL team up on Yakon, then he has to be including his own power, which he admitted was above Frieza. Edited by Saberoph, Feb 11 2016, 04:45 PM.
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| + Kaboom | Feb 11 2016, 04:44 PM Post #6 |
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Kaioshin's an overly cautious worry-wart, that's all. He's anxious about anything and anyone related to Majin Boo (with good reason), and he wants to play things safe inside Bobbidi's ship by doing stuff like ganging up on the enemy, even if it ends up not being necessary. But the Saiyans aren't having any of that, and prefer to jump in headfirst and gauge their foes' strength the old fashioned way with one-on-one fights. |
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| Saberoph | Feb 11 2016, 04:51 PM Post #7 |
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I'll be honest...that sounds more like trying to explain around it. He's still including his own power when suggesting they do this, and has to be also comparing his power to Yakon as well. Also, he doesn't seem very confident when suggesting this either, like he's expecting them to just barely win. However, Base Kakarrot casually toys with Yakon where Kaioshin wasn't very confident with their victory if they teamed up. Yeah, you could argue he was being cautious, but the fact that no matter how you look at it Kaioshin still has to compare his power to Yakon's and include his own to what he feels from the Base Saiyajins at that moment when suggesting the team up. |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| Mihawk | Feb 11 2016, 04:59 PM Post #8 |
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-delete- do not want to join, haha
Edited by Mihawk, Feb 11 2016, 05:04 PM.
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| + Clearin | Feb 11 2016, 05:17 PM Post #9 |
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The Kaioshin stuff is easy enough to explain for people who believe Freeza > Base Saiyans. Saiyans fight alone. They had already made that clear. The last thing Kaioshin wants to do is piss Vegeta or Goku off by jumping into THEIR battle. You still run into the problem of Babidi thinking Pui Pui could take out Kaioshin and the rest of them though. |
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| Saberoph | Feb 11 2016, 05:25 PM Post #10 |
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You do run into that. However, with Kaioshin you still have to get around him including his own power when suggesting they team up, and the fact that he doesn't seem very confident in saying they "might" manage something. I do believe it's not as easy to get around. There are things to explain around, but not every thing is something that can be completely explained around, and you run into problems trying to do so. |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| + Clearin | Feb 11 2016, 05:30 PM Post #11 |
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Suggesting they team up is still better than suggesting he takes over their fights completely, both in terms of keeping the Saiyans happy, and just general safety. And Kaioshin doesn't say they "might" manage something as far as I can see. He just says "let's fight together". Going purely by strength, Kaioshin shouldn't need them to fight together anyway since SSj2 Gohan alone could beat all the fighters in Babidi's ship. |
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| ekrolo2 | Feb 11 2016, 05:33 PM Post #12 |
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Saying you're "above Freeza" is a pretty vague designation. Is he above first form Freeza? The one that's been around since forever? Does he even know that Freeza has his various transformations? If Supreme Kai had a hint of a clue as to what Goku or frankly anyone there is capable of, I'd say he would know about those but then you run into the problem of him thinking that fodder like Pui Pui or Yakon can pose a threat to them. The only thing that supports Supreme Kai being above Max Freeza is the Daizenshuu. But once again, unless Piccolo is already worthless s*** fodder to at least, Base Goku and Gohan at the Cell Games, there's no way to make him "far superior to Super Namekian Piccolo" and then still have Goku & Vegeta barely above SSJ2, Cell Games Gohan. The only way I can even somewhat reconcile this stuff is to shrink the SSJ multiplier. |
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| Saberoph | Feb 11 2016, 05:35 PM Post #13 |
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We all know that, but at the time they're all in Base and with it being a team effort, Kaioshin would still be comparing his power to Yakon, yet Kakarrot in Base was able to toy with and of course we know his reaction. If anything it seemed like Kaioshin was expecting them to fight in Base along with him, because if he was really playing it safe, he would've told Gohan to Transform right after he says they should fight together. |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| * Yu Narukami | Feb 11 2016, 06:04 PM Post #14 |
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Izanagi!
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That would imply that Kaioshin thought that being able to one-shot First/Second/Third Form Freeza was impressive. Edited by Yu Narukami, Feb 11 2016, 06:41 PM.
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| Saberoph | Feb 11 2016, 09:00 PM Post #15 |
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Haha that going to be my next point., had my computer not gone all idiot on me. Kakarrot seemed impressed with the idea that Kaioshin could one shot Frieza. Well, in the Frieza arc was 3 million before he went SSJ, so why would he consider that impressive if he's weaker than his Base. SSJ Kakarrot had a back and forth battle with 100% Frieza, which was impressive considering who Frieza was. So, why would he be talking about a weaker form of Frieza, who was deemed outclassed post Vegeta's Zenkai, and Kakarrot's Post healing chamber? That literally makes absolutely zero sense. Even from Kakarrot's point of view, he would be thinking about the form of Frieza he fought with, considering how tough of a fight Frieza gave him...of course Kakarrot would be impressed knowing someone without a Transformation could one shot Kakarrot's toughest foe. Sure Cell was stronger, but with his fight with Frieza things truly did look hopeless until he hit his Genkai Dama, then it looked even more hopeless until he went SSJ...that's something Cell didn't do, then both men set in a constant back and forth battle on a dying planet. I just don't see how he could be referring to a much weaker form of Frieza, when it doesn't make sense. I'll admit there are arguments against this, but a lot of them just involves either making excuses or just flat out ignoring points that can't be explained around. Edited by Saberoph, Feb 11 2016, 09:01 PM.
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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